The following is a selection of tips & comments from over the past year or so. The messages are more or less as they appeared originally, though I have taken the liberty of editing out some of the irrelevant byplay. Where they are useful parts of the originating questions are included italicized & in (brackets). Editor’s notes within messages are enclosed in <brackets>.
GENERAL
OneQwikDic on Feb. 17, 2001
When you refinish and re-deck, remember that your best friend is MASKING
TAPE and NEWSPAPER. If you prepare properly, you will have much less
cleanup. And don't forget your other friend, wax paper. It doesn't get along
with epoxy and this is good......
G2 on Apr. 16, 2001
Good test <for paint compatibility> is to take a rag soaked with the thinner of the new paint you would like to use. Place it on an area of the old paint that can easily be sanded away if necessary and let the cloth sit on it for about 5 min. If it softens the old paint you have an incompatible pair. If not, proceed with caution but with the right prep work your new paint should stick fine.
Rick on Apr. 16, 2001
You have to be careful when mixing different types of paint, as there can be a bonding problem between the different types that can result in a real mess if the finish being painted is not compatible to the new finish being put on. Best things to do are:
1. Check with supplier/manufacturer of the paint you want to use, regarding what specific surface preparations must be done prior to painting.
2.Try a test area and see what happens. Usually, if there is going to be an adverse reaction, it will occur within a few hours of application. Better to try things out on a test piece, instead of spending time (and $$) on doing the hull, only to have it rejected, and have to do it all over again.
Henry on Apr. 17, 2001
Your poly-u paint is going to be either one or two part. The single part linear poly-u (Interlux Brightsides, Easypoxy etc...) provides a good finish when applied carefully and sands well- but most two parts will eat it. When you step up to a two part linear poly-u or "epoxy" paint do what Gary says to check for compatibility. Also, when you step up to that level of paint it would be best to have a pro spray it for you after you are done with an extensive prep job. I would recommend using the matching primer layers from whatever maker you choose like US Paint 545 (Awl Grip) for your prep job. For Fireball purposes a professional Awl Grip job will never fade and if done very well will never need anything more than a 800+ grit wet sand job to get the dust particles out. A poorly done one will result in DAYS of sanding and even then you will likely never again have a true surface to work from without extensive re-priming, filling, and fairing.
REFINISHING
Phil Locker (2000)
<The deck> should have been built with 2 or 3 coats of epoxy to seal the wood, and on top of that should be some quality marine varnish in order to add UV protection. Easiest is to just sand it off (belt sander, but be careful!). Go slow, or you can easily sand through the top layer of veneer on the plywood. When down to bare wood, seal the deck with 2 or 3 coats of a good epoxy (West System has a hardener specifically for clear-coat applications), then add a varnish or clear-coat urathane on top (after the epoxy is well cured). There is a story on a fireball restoration on the Ottawa fleet homepage - http://www.magma.ca/~locker/ottawa/fireball.htm
d.ray (2000)
If <the resin is> delaminated from the wood it is more likely polyester resin than epoxy. But the same procedure sand to remove then epoxy with WEST system epoxt ( gougen brothers) or system three epoxy. I wouldn’t remove the whole thing just where you need it and the replaced epoxy should last a lifetime.
Mike McEvoy (2001)
The process is simple but labor intensive. Strip the boat completely down to bare wood using whatever means necessary - paint stripper or sanding. Be careful not to sand through the veneer on the plywood. Once the boat is down to bare wood mix the epoxy using the special hardener available to "clear coat" the wood (if you want to maintain the wood finish. Use a good quality brush or those disposable foam brushes or a small roller to apply the epoxy. Once the epoxy is dried sand lightly and apply a two part epoxy paint finish. There is a good article on refinishing a boat on the Ottawa Fleet page
"BOTTOM" PAINT
Phil Locker (2000)
I used Interlux Brightsides one part polyurethane, and it seemed to scratch and scuff very easily. I'll be repainting before next season, and want something that will take a little more abuse.
Ola Neckling (2000)
We and some other Fireball sailors have with good result used common car paint. It's cheap and easy to paint just do the 'under' work yourself and take the boat to a car painting firm. It's also light weight.
Malcolm Osborne (2000)
In South Africa, we also generally use motor car paint (two part epoxy), but we are more do-it-yourself. We buy or borrow a compressor and spray gun to apply the paint ourselves. Auto repairers charge a lot for labour, making it much more attractive to acquire the spray-painting skills. Especially in the beginning one is prone to get paint runs, but these can be sanded down with a bit of elbow grease! The `hot-shots' go for as many as 7 to 10 layers of paint, sanded down each time, to build up a good mirror-like finish.
Adrian Marsden (2000)
If you cannot get a sprayed finish on your boat ,the next best thing in my opinion is to use Awlgrip by U.S Paints, it is an Alphatic urethane and it will give you a very hard finish. It can be brushed on very nicely, but you need to buy the Brushing Catalyst and a
good quality brush. But be CAREFUL, you need lots of ventilation.
Mike McEvoy (2000)
I used Endura and have not touched the boat since it was built in 1989 except to repair dings etc. It needs to be refinished now but once every 5 or 6 years I can handle. The only knock on Endura is that is is extremely hard and tends to crack and break away if it receives a blow from anything. The clear coat has a tendency to peel away in high use areas but nothing serious. It also has absolutely zero "filling" capacity so even the tiniest pinholes in the epoxy will show through the final finish. I had mine professionally sprayed in a body shop. I have no experience in trying to brush the stuff. I suspect the results would not be good. As to varnish forget it unless you're into annual revarnishing. Happy sanding!!!!
Kent Macrae (2000)
Used in Alberta by UB's composite boats: Endura (see above post) It's the best stuff ever conceved due to low maintenence and dead simple application. After sanding it for hours on end, we take it to an autobody store and have the boat sprayed. N.B. sanding must be perfect to avoid post autobody shop sanding.
NICOLE GREEN (2000)
Phil--probably the best thing to use is USPaint's AWLGRIP- which is similar to car paint, but marine graded
Fraser Rennie (2000)
For those that want better then a brush on finish, but don't have equipment for a "Auto body shop" spray job, an airless spray is just as good! Wagner sells an economical line of airless spray equipment available at Home Depot starting from $85.00 Can. I have done two boats this way and the results are great, or at least as great as your prep work! The airless has some advantages over spray or brush and can be easily done by a rank amateur (like me). The biggest hassle is that on the cheapest equipment they only give you a small paint bottle, and you may not finish a complete pass before having to remix and refill. If you are going to buy equipment, go one step up and get the one that attaches to the paint can, or has larger capacity, especially if using two part epoxy paints. All paints need a lot of thinning to spray, and this is an added cost, but is way cheaper then same volume of paint.
Mark Miller (2000)
pettit brand easy-poxy is a one to one epoxy paint that can be rolled or sprayed and seems to have a pretty hard finish. I used it on a bottom for a j-24 3 yrs ago and it seems to held up well and am going to use it on the bottom of my woodie refurb 8362. part of the info I got from west marine and other suppliers was that this is a good user friendly product that finished well.
G2 (Dec.31, 2000)
Interlux makes a two part poly (not bright sides!) maybe someone else can remember what the name is. But find it and use it, it gives awl grip durability without the risk of the weekend warrior seriously taking years off his/her life. Also try and spray it if possible, it just looks nicer.
Rick D. (Dec. 31, 2000)
You may be talking about the Interthane Plus Two-part Poly. I have been considering it but wasn't sure because I hadn't heard of anyone using it before. It's a bit pricey and I didn't want to invest in it and not be happy with the finish. I do have a guy who can spray for me. I have my centreboard and two rudders to do as well. Would a 1 quart kit be enough for two coats if sprayed?
G2 (Dec. 31, 2000)
That’s the stuff! I have used it and it is tough stuff, in my opinion well worth the money. However the guy spraying better be pretty good and the climate has to be right. Canadia cold would be bad for it. Also as with any good paint job, prep work is key any flaws in the prep work and primer will show in such a hard thin paint. The proper primer is a must as well. It will need to remain warm indoors for at least two days. With that said if used properly you will not need to re-paint for years to come. A quart probably will not be enough because you loose quite a bit while spraying.
XL (Dec. 31, 2000)
Yes, of course! What is called "International" in Europe is "Interlux" in USA and Canada.
XL (Jan. 1, 2001)
Spraying requires an experienced hand, so I let others do it. 2 pot polyurethane is somehow thinner than car paint and runs faster. Also the curing process is a bit different and can go on without air, so the equipment should be thoroughly cleaned early enough. What you told about your paint guy sounds like he's got plenty of experience. Point out the above, let him read the technical sheets Interlux provides and most important - let him do some test spraying. After all that I believe not much can go wrong.
Rick D. (Jan. 1, 2001)
<I missed the message this one is referring to; you fill in the blanks.>
XL. Good point. The two coats I was referring to were top coats. I mistakenly failed to mention the primer. I had never thought of a using a contrasting colour in the middle though. We also want a white finish so this is something to ponder. Interlux info says that the paint can also be sprayed HVLP which apparently wastes much less paint. My paint guy has such a system and a heated shop but he mostly sprays car paint. What sort of difference do you see between spraying car paint and the 2 part poly?
Tom Egli (Jan. 1, 2001)
Another way to go is to use two-part auto paint. High-end auto paints (eg. Dupont Imron) are usually two-component polyurethanes, and are chemically identical (almost, but it really doesn't matter for drysail boats) to marine two-parters such as International's Interthane Plus. So go to your local auto body shop, and have them spray the boat with any color your little heart desires. They get to use the product they're used to, and you get a pretty good price in return.
An added bonus is if you have a wooden deck. Instead of varnishing the deck and dealing with it every year, have the auto body guys apply five or six layers of automotive clear-coat. This is the stuff they use to protect car paint and give it a really nice glossy finish.
When I put "Stress Puppy", CAN 14467 together in 1995, this is the route I took (as did Rob Levy), and have not had to put a single bit of work into the boat's finish until this winter (6-year tune-up).
As for the final product, prep is everything. All wood must be epoxy sealed and perfectly fair, since sprayed-on paints will highlight any imperfection.
ch (Jan. 4, 2001)
I used auto paint on my new wood boat and was very happy with the results. I looked at using Endura, Awlgrip or Interlux two part epoxies, but my friendly auto paint shop wasn't familiar with the products and told me their one experience with Endura was disastrous. This meant going to a specialty paint shop, with resulting costs, if I wanted these products. As far as I could ascertain, the only advantage of these paints over good quality car paint is that they may be slightly harder, and thus more resistant to scratching. On the other hand, scratches in car paint can be easily polished out, which is not the case with Endura, and I believe the auto paint may be a bit more flexible, and thus less inclined to crack if the hull flexes. The other advantage of auto paint is that the paint shop buys in bulk and just mixes enough for the job at hand. This also makes it easy to repaint repairs or touch-ups, as they always have the paint in stock. As noted by Tom above, these paints are very thin and will highlight all imperfections in the underlying surface, which must be perfectly smooth and all scratches, gluelines etc. filled. The process I used was to seal all new wood with 3 coats of West System Epoxy sealer, and then I applied two coats of Endura 2 part epoxy over this with a brush. The brushable Epoxy is quite thick and two coats were sufficient to fill the grain of the wood. I then took the hull to my friends paint shop and used his air sanders to level the finish on the entire boat. This took a couple of hours, and about 50 8" sanding discs, but saved hours and hours of the hand or electric sanding that would otherwise have been required. Once the base was perfectly level, my friend sprayed on the top coats of auto clear coat. He used 4-6 coats as a base, which he allowed to harden for a couple of days, then he leveled this with about 600 grit paper, then sprayed another 4 coats on top of this. Each coat is very thin, and if you plan on spraying, you will definitely need more than 2 coats to get a good film. My bill from the paint shop was about $200.00, which covered the cost of materials and something for my friends labour, but you will probably have to pay more unless you have a friend with a paint shop. The clearcoat I used has all the UV protection you need and hopefully it will last a good long while before I need to refinish it. If you are going to paint the hull white, I suggest you have the paint shop spray a couple of coats of clear over the white as this will give a high gloss with extra scratch and dent resistance, as I'm told the clearcoat is a harder finish than the tinted paint. Anyway, you can view the results at: http://www.lo0.com/fireball/BuilderPhotos/collinh.html
Crump (Jan. 5, 2001)
You know, every one b###hes about the money, the time and all that. For $25 USD you buy Petite (or the like), roll it on, brush it out immediately and wet sand. Why blow money on a spray job when all you're gonna do is wet sand it? Scratches and the like ALWAYS happen, so why fight the inevitable? You guys must all like pissing upwind. The best way to get rid of the surface blemishes is to use brush (or spray it if you already own a compressor and gun(clue: I own my own gun.....because there is that old Yankee adage that "If you want it done right, do it yourself....") on water-borne "building" automotive primer, then sand.....they invented this stuff for a purpose......so guys, use the KISS rule (for those who don't know it, "Keep It Simple Stupid"). Or. KEEP PAYING LOTS OF BUCKS......as Forest says, "Stupid is as stupid does."
Chocolate (Jan. 5, 2001)
(Do you have any water borne "building primer" in clear???)
No. It is light gray from the auto store and comes in normal sized cans ($5 or less) and the good stuff I use from the automotive paint store is dark grey and is (was?) about 16 for a quart......but it cleans up with water. The can stuff I keep with me for regattas for quick fixes when I SCRATCH THE BOAT.....yes, I do it too.
R. Thompson (Jun. 10, 2001)
You use topside paint. The bottom paint is thick ugly stuff you use if your boat has to live in the water. Marine (topside) enamel is alright. For new boats we use four or five coats of epoxy sealer and paint with two part polyurethane, generally sprayed. Car painters can do a good job. The paints are quite toxic so get help from an experienced painter. The final job cannot look any better than your surface prep. We did a very nice job once with Awlgrip, following the instructions exactly. The enamels are quite cheap and safe.
Chris (Jun. 11, 2001)
Before we redid out bottom this winter we had interlux one-part polyurethane. It worked pretty good, and it was very durable. Also, topside paint is fine for drysailing, and is much easier to apply and maintain than a two part paint, so I would suggest just going with that.
DECK
Rick (Feb. 20, 2001)
As a rule, I have been re-finishing the decks on my boat about every 3 or 4 years, depending upon how messed up they get (with all the use the boat gets these days!) I use Interlux Superspar varnish, brushed on with a good bristle brush. As for the decks, yes, I like the wood pattern on them very much. The mahogany used was a Sapele (I think) which was still readily available when this boat was built back in 1978.
REFINISHING FIBREGLASS
G2 (Jan. 15, 2001)
(This is an all glass boat that needs a bottom to top workover. Should I just sand it down, fill the cracks and paint it or should I have it gelcoated?)
You cannot gel-coat a boat and have it come out well. gel-coat is essentially a pigmented resin that is applied to the mold to provide a glossy finish. Roll with some cheap paint on this on and buy a new boat as soon as possible.
COCKPIT
Floor paint: polymeric non-skid compound by Interlux.
Mike McEvoy (2000)
Whether to paint or varnish the cockpit depends on preference and to some extent on the condition of the wood. If it is badly stained from water you probably won't be able to sand enough to get a decent finish without sanding through the veneer. On the other hand a clear finish lets you see if the water is getting into the ply. In either case (and for your deck as well) saturate the wood with a two part epoxy first (after removing all of the old finish and getting down to bare wood). This will help prevent water from getting into places it shouldn't and help to keep the boat light. If you want to stain you should probably stain first. But if it were me I'd be inclined to epoxy first and then to paint or stain. I'd also suggest that a polyurethane paint ot two-part epoxy paint is going to give you better results than varnish except that it is difficult to work with by brush (spray works best). As to the nails probably best to fill the holes first.